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GHW
Clibit wrote:


Double dry hopping is fashionable with the hipster craft breweries right now. 

He says, sounding like an old codger. [rofl]


You old codger

It works though. But obviously it works. Add more hops = hoppier
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Clibit
GHW wrote:
You old codger It works though. But obviously it works. Add more hops = hoppier


I'm not too old to give you a clip round the ear.


Is treble dry hopping a thing yet?
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AdrianDBW
Yes according to google there are many triple dry hopped beers including, but not limited to; Northern Monk's Northern Rising;  Jack's Abby Hoponius Union; Lupulin Brewings's Lupulin Hooey; Magnify Brewings's Vine Shine; Soma's Triple Dry Hopped Mosaic; and Abstrakt's Triple Dry Hopped Imperial Black IPA.

So it's mostly Americans, but some crazy northerners in Leeds are also doing it...

 

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Clibit
AdrianDBW wrote:
Yes according to google there are many triple dry hopped beers including, but not limited to; Northern Monk's Northern Rising;  Jack's Abby Hoponius Union; Lupulin Brewings's Lupulin Hooey; Magnify Brewings's Vine Shine; Soma's Triple Dry Hopped Mosaic; and Abstrakt's Triple Dry Hopped Imperial Black IPA.

So it's mostly Americans, but some crazy northerners in Leeds are also doing it...


Northern Monk eh? Interesting. 
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Pinto
Clibit wrote:


Northern Monk eh? Interesting. 


Yeah, in recession Britain, they cant even afford the "-ey" on the end of the name these days [rofl] [rofl] [rofl]
Beer is like porn - you can buy it easily enough, but its so much more fun to make it [wink]
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Clibit
Pinto wrote:


Yeah, in recession Britain, they cant even afford the "-ey" on the end of the name these days [rofl] [rofl] [rofl]


Actually Jeff, there's a brewery in Lancashire called Northern Monkey.

So take that back!   [rofl]
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Simonh82
For hoppy beers I usually do a 60 minute or first wort hop addition for most of my bitterness, then a 2g/L 5 or 10 minute addition if I want to bump the bitterness and add some flavour/aroma, I always do a 2-3g/L flame out addition which, now that I'm using a counter flow chiller, sits in the hot wort for about half an hour whilst it transfers to the fermentor.   I was worried about adding lots of bitterness and boiling off the hop aroma at the high temperatures but I just account for a bit of extra bitterness in the recipe and I actually think I have got better flavour/aroma extraction at the high temp steep than when I've cooled to 70-80°C.  If I want it hoppy then I would always dry hop, usually at 4-6g/L. 

I don't think I would really consider adding hops for flavour or aroma with more than 10 minutes of the boil to go.  You are just driving off the hop oils. 
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Clibit
We seem to have a few people questioning the effectiveness of sub 80C hop steeping. Including me, I think! Do hops need a short sharp heat thing and then cooling to hold on to the oils? No, they don't dry hopping proves that. Maybe they need short heat and rapid cool, or long slow room temperature. And in between doesn't work that well.


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Simonh82
Clibit wrote:
We seem to have a few people questioning the effectiveness of sub 80C hop steeping. Including me, I think! Do hops need a short sharp heat thing and then cooling to hold on to the oils? No, they don't dry hopping proves that. Maybe they need short heat and rapid cool, or long slow room temperature. And in between doesn't work that well.

When I've used a sub 80°C steep it has certainly produced a hoppy beer but I don't think it has produced a more hoppy beer.

My understanding is that above 80°C you are potentially adding bitterness and boiling off the more volatile hop oils. The rate at which the aroma compounds are extracted and the rate at which they boil off are all related to the the temperature of the wort.  At a higher temperature you will get quicker extraction but also more volatilization.  There has to be a sweet spot to get maximum extraction and minimum volatilization but where that is will probably vary depending on the particular hop oils that you want to capture in your brew.  Potentially the best method would be to do a long low temp steep but as I brew in the evening and it is usually well past midnight by the time I'm chilling my wort, I am not going to hang around for a really long steep at 50°C.  I think you also risk leaving the wort at perfect bacterial growth temperature if you go too low for two long.

One thing that has made me worry slightly less about hot steeping was a recent addition of the basic brewing podcast.  They interviewed a homebrewer who had attempted to make a decent non-alcoholic beer.  He did this by fermenting the beer, then raising the temperature to 75-80°C which is the boiling point of ethanol for 45 minutes.  Despite the smell of alcohol leaving the beer completely, it turned out to still have quite a bit of alcohol in it.  I think hop oils would behave in a similar manner so hopefully there will still be a decent bit left in the wort.    
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Clibit
Simonh82 wrote:

When I've used a sub 80°C steep it has certainly produced a hoppy beer but I don't think it has produced a more hoppy beer.

My understanding is that above 80°C you are potentially adding bitterness and boiling off the more volatile hop oils. The rate at which the aroma compounds are extracted and the rate at which they boil off are all related to the the temperature of the wort.  At a higher temperature you will get quicker extraction but also more volatilization.  There has to be a sweet spot to get maximum extraction and minimum volatilization but where that is will probably vary depending on the particular hop oils that you want to capture in your brew.  Potentially the best method would be to do a long low temp steep but as I brew in the evening and it is usually well past midnight by the time I'm chilling my wort, I am not going to hang around for a really long steep at 50°C.  I think you also risk leaving the wort at perfect bacterial growth temperature if you go too low for two long.

One thing that has made me worry slightly less about hot steeping was a recent addition of the basic brewing podcast.  They interviewed a homebrewer who had attempted to make a decent non-alcoholic beer.  He did this by fermenting the beer, then raising the temperature to 75-80°C which is the boiling point of ethanol for 45 minutes.  Despite the smell of alcohol leaving the beer completely, it turned out to still have quite a bit of alcohol in it.  I think hop oils would behave in a similar manner so hopefully there will still be a decent bit left in the wort.    


Talking sense Simon.  [thumb]

I do think we are looking for a sweet spot, temperature/time. Or a line on a graph maybe, time v temp.

I once did a 1 hour steep at 60C with loads of hops, cos I over cooled the wort, I didn't feel it was very effective.
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GHW
I’m planning a quintuple dry hopped treble imperial ipa.
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Clibit
GHW wrote:
I’m planning a quintuple dry hopped treble imperial ipa.


Wimp.
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