Clibit
Interesting xbmt this one, a pale ale made twice, one with kettle additions at 60, 10 and 2, and the other with all the hops at flameout, steeped for 20 mins. Same total hop quantity.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/

Apparently it was impossible to tell them apart. Plus, they were tested for IBUs, and were very similar, but both had about 30 IBUs, rather than 40 IBUs as predicted by the brewing software.

There was an earlier xbmt where two brews were made with the only difference being one had hops at 20 mins and the other had hops added at flameout and steeped for 20 mins. These were impossible to differentiate too, unsurprisingly really.

My feeling, based on this and my own experience is that, aside fromgetting some sort of prectability with IBUs/bitterness, the main difference to be gained from adding hops at different times is from adding hops at different wort temperatures. If the wort is at or close to 100C, then pre or post boil doesn't make any significant difference. Adding hops sub 80C will make a difference in terms of IBUs extracted. It's a worthwhile way to add aroma without much bitterness. Dry hopping does something different again. 

But the cooler the wort, the longer the hops need contact to release their oils. For me, a sub 80 hop stand needs time if you want to make the most of the hops. How long, I am not entirely sure. Maybe an hour, which delays chilling. I don't chill, so sometimes add hops at 80 and leave the wort to cool to 20 before removing the hops and pitching the yeast. 

So I think flameout hops are a bit pointless, especially if you chill after flameout, in terms of the time they add to the process - just put the hops in the boil for the same length of time you would steep them. Use sub 80 hop stands to add hop aroma without much bitterness, especially if you are using high AA hops for aroma. And use dry hopping for the dry hop aroma effect, which has a unique aroma effect, IMO.

Thoughts?





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AdrianDBW
This is an interesting topic- and I'm keen to see other more experience brewers responses- but in my last brew I steeped some hops at flame out and didn't think there was any gain over if I'd just checked them in the boil for the last ten minutes.

There was another discussion on here anyway talking about what happens to the hop oils during fermentation- so any hops added pre-fermentation will experience the same yeast action weather steeped, boiled or hop-backed. So this kinda backs up that theory and explains why dry-hopping can be so different.
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HisDudeness
Its quite surprising that there was no perceivable difference but reading into the test a bit more the hop stand being done at near boiling temperature for a period that was estimated to give the same overall bitterness means it isn't that far off the other experiment where it was 20 boil vs 20 steep. The main difference really is that this one had a 60 minute addition everything else was essentially equivalent to late boil additions (although with some variations in timing). The idea that cooling the wort before steeping will have an effect is certainly backed up by the theory of oil volatility and general consensus but then they also have more than one experiment on this variable that did not return significant results! 

http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/31/the-hop-stand-flameout-vs-120f-49c-exbeeriment-results/
http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/01/the-hop-stand-hot-vs-chilled-wort-exbeeriment-results/

So it seems that most of the Brulosophy results point to faffing around with late additions and steeping being a total waste of time, chuck them all in at the same time and just make sure you are still in the ball park for overall IBUs. Now to some extent I think there is some weight to this I have never bought into this idea that early additions exclusively give bitterness, mid boil flavour and late aroma, these things are all intrinsically linked, bitterness is flavour, aroma is part of flavour etc etc, but I would have still expected the character of that flavour/aroma to be altered by the length of time in the boil. So I think the truth is somewhere between the two, I think limitations in the method and data collection of the Brulosophy experiments means they should be treated with some scepticism BUT I also believe that they do indicate that some of the methods some people swear by are probably more marginal in their impact than some would have you believe. Also there are different conclusions reached elsewhere as acknowledged by brulosophy themselves

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/writeup-hop-whirlpool-does-steeping-lower-temperature-improve-final-hop
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Clibit
Very nicely put Dude, I agree with your thoughts.

What I think in simple terms is that there are four possible stages of hopping, discounting pre-boil hops, which I see as start of boil hops, personally. 

1. Start of boil - duration = length of the boil
2. End of boil / flameout steep - best to keep short, around 15-20 mins
3. Steep below 80C - best left in longer, 1- 2 hours or more, IME.
4. Dry at ambient (which can have sub-stages too) - 2/3 days
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AdrianDBW
What about a hop back? The breweries seem to be all over these- yet you're essentially just running the wort through some hops between the kettle and the FV, so hardly any contact time at all?
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Clibit
AdrianDBW wrote:
What about a hop back? The breweries seem to be all over these- yet you're essentially just running the wort through some hops between the kettle and the FV, so hardly any contact time at all?


Wort passes through a hopback after the boil on its way to the FV. It's a lot of wort though, in a brewery, it will take an hour or two. 
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GHW
I believe a hop back achieves similar results to dry hopping. Wort will have often been cooled at the point it goes through the hop back. Presumably as the hops get soaked they release more oils too.
I asked the wye valley brewery about their HPA recipe and they used a hop back. Their brewer advised my to dry hop (styrian holdings) rather than do a large, late addition. Presumably to manage bitterness and get as much floral notes from the styrian as possible.
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Clibit
GHW wrote:
I believe a hop back achieves similar results to dry hopping. Wort will have often been cooled at the point it goes through the hop back. Presumably as the hops get soaked they release more oils too.
I asked the wye valley brewery about their HPA recipe and they used a hop back. Their brewer advised my to dry hop (styrian holdings) rather than do a large, late addition. Presumably to manage bitterness and get as much floral notes from the styrian as possible.


I think the wort is still very hot when it passes through a hopback - straight from the kettle, through the hopback, then to the heat exchanger to be cooled. This may vary I guess, but the idea of passing cooled wort through the hopback doesn't make sense to me.
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