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Clibit
MSK wrote:
You know of them Pinto? Perhaps they have some interest in helping brewers add copious amounts of minerals to their beers?


It's not copious amounts IMO. 
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Pinto
Could be they have shares in a brewing mineral supplier 😉 let's just say I got a murphys test once, and then got another much, much better one elsewhere for less money.
Beer is like porn - you can buy it easily enough, but its so much more fun to make it [wink]
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Robbie
Clibit wrote:


It's not copious amounts IMO. 


It hugely interesting.  As you know we in the UK have such diversity, from the chalk laden water of the south, the sulphate water of Burton to the super soft water of the frozen north and everything in between.  The pH of my tap water is 6.5, a kick in the bum away from RO water, i just stare at my water and it acidify, on the other hand brewers elsewhere might have to try all sorts of boiling and buckets of acid to get it to a reasonable level. 

Murphy's advocate almost 200ppm of calcium, that is huge for me to even reach, I'd have to add 12g of calcium sulphate and 12g of calcium chloride to get close to those kind of levels.  thats pretty big for someone that is used to using maybe 1.2 grams of each for mash and a similar amount for sparge.  For someone else they may only need to add relatively few additions to reach those kind of levels.  The interesting thing though is why are Murphys advocating these levels?
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Pinto
I'd reccomend verifying those quantities in a trustworthy water calculator, such as Bru'n Water to be sure the additions are correct.  It will also allow you to select a number of other water profile types to see how they vary.

Water can vary significantly depending on HOW it's drawn - you mention that southern water can be very hard, and this is true - but it depends on whether it's been drawn from an aquifer or a surface resevoir - my previous two adresses are 15 miles apart but the water reports are worlds apart; my old house was supplied from a limestone borehole and my current comes from a resevoir
Beer is like porn - you can buy it easily enough, but its so much more fun to make it [wink]
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Robbie
sure i know my way around bru.n.water, the one i used t get the 12g was ez_watrer_calculator, take a look.

Screenshot from 2018-03-06 22-46-09.png   

Its set for a full volume BIAB, NO sparge, 32 Litres.  according to this software I need to add 12g of calcium chloride and 12g of calcium sulphate to get near Murphys recommendations of 200ppm of calcium.
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Robbie
infact the values in Bru'n'water are very similar, check it out.

Screenshot from 2018-03-06 22-55-13.png 

The first value of 200.5 is the overall calcium content and as you can see the additions are almost 12g each, a huge amount in my opinion if we are supposed to target Murphys recommendations.
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Robbie
Personally I like calcium, I think its great for beer, but 200ppm, wow. 
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Robbie
I now understand why there is a difference in approach between ourselves and our American cousins, they were very much influenced by German brewing which favoured biological acidification, whereas we have always promoted mineral additions.  I think that this is reflected in Murphys recommendations.
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Gregles
I don't have a scooby about water. I have metaphorically dipped my toes in but it all washed over me - the most I do is add a couple of teaspoons of gypsum to my hoppy brews and wish I knew a bit more.
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Pinto
As an associate of mine told me long ago - get your pH right and the rest is just polish 😉  These days, the most I do is run a salifert check if I remember.  I've become a lazy brewer [rofl]
Beer is like porn - you can buy it easily enough, but its so much more fun to make it [wink]
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Clibit
MSK wrote:
I now understand why there is a difference in approach between ourselves and our American cousins, they were very much influenced by German brewing which favoured biological acidification, whereas we have always promoted mineral additions.  I think that this is reflected in Murphys recommendations.


You could well be right there. Without really understanding water chemistry, I believe that it is pretty subjective. There are different ways to go about it, from a PH perspective, and people have different tastes. Some people like the effect of chloride on a malty beer, others don't, for example. If is talked about in terms of right and wrong, when really it is a matter of taste, partly at least. Breweries do different things to their water, and use different water profiles for similar beers. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?
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Robbie
Clibit wrote:


You could well be right there. Without really understanding water chemistry, I believe that it is pretty subjective. There are different ways to go about it, from a PH perspective, and people have different tastes. Some people like the effect of chloride on a malty beer, others don't, for example. If is talked about in terms of right and wrong, when really it is a matter of taste, partly at least. Breweries do different things to their water, and use different water profiles for similar beers. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?


yes indeed, personally for dark malty beers I like chalk and baking soda, I think it adds a silky mouthfeel, but people don't like chalk because it doesn’t dissolve easily and the calculations of just how much calcium it adds are crazeee mental, but ok, we are using it simply for flavour anyway not so much to balance pH.  It actually dissolves under pressure, a fizzy bottle of carbonated water dissolves it handsomely! 
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Robbie
Gregles wrote:
I don't have a scooby about water. I have metaphorically dipped my toes in but it all washed over me - the most I do is add a couple of teaspoons of gypsum to my hoppy brews and wish I knew a bit more.


Like Pinto says the main thing is mash pH, everything else is bells and whistles.  Btw where did you get your thermocoupler for your PID?  it looks like 1/2 NPT if i am not mistaken? reason i ask is that i am looking to get one, at present I just stick my temperature probe in the mash but would like an in-line one like yours.
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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Robbie
Pinto wrote:
As an associate of mine told me long ago - get your pH right and the rest is just polish 😉  These days, the most I do is run a salifert check if I remember.  I've become a lazy brewer [rofl]


so true and such solid advice, brewing is an art form, sure technical science is helpful, but it will always be an art form.
Beer is an expression of the human spirit. . . we use technical sciences as a tool to create it but its essence is and always will be a form of art - Handbook of brewing, chapter 2, page 55
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